pison en tupe: nimisin pi "need" en "should/must"

akesi wawa telo

mi sona e ni: nimi ni la, tenpo mute la, sina mute li kepeken e nimi “wile” taso. tenpo mute la nasin toki ni li pona.

taso, sina wile pali e ante pona pi nimi “want” en “need” en “should/must” la, sina toki e seme?

toki insa mi li ni:

sona la, “want” li ken awen nimi pu “wile”.
“need” li ken ante tawa nimisin “pison” (tan nimi “besoin” pi toki Kanse/French).

sina ken pana e nimi ante sina. nimi ni li nimi e “necessity/requirement/necessary/essential/fundamental” kin.
“should/must” li ken ante tawa nimisin “tupe” (tan nimi “devrait” pi toki Kanse)

sina ken pana e nimi ante sina. nimi ni li nimi e “obligation/duty” kin.

sitelen pona mi pi nimisin ni li ni:

Translation:

I know that you guys would mostly use “wile” only to mean these words, and it works okay most of the time. But if you wanted to make a clear difference between “want”, “need” and “should/must”, what would you say?

This is my idea:

Obviously, “want” stays as the nimi pu “wile”.
“Need” can change to nimisin “pison” (from the French word “besoin”). You can give me your own word ideas. This word would also mean “necessity/requirement/necessary/essential/fundamental”. [“pison” doesn’t mean “piss on” lol]
“Should/must” can change to nimisin “tupe” (from the French word “devrait”). You can give me your own word ideas. This word would also mean “obligation/duty”.

[My sitelen pona concepts are attached above]

jan Kekan San

sitelen pona sina li sama ni: wile suli, wile lawa

sitelen pona li ni lon tenpo; o lukin e sitelen kule ale

taso, sitelen pona ni li sama ale la nimi sina li lon ala, nimi pu taso li lon

kin la, mi wile la mi wile. mi o ijo la mi ken wile, taso mute la mi o ijo.

akesi wawa telo

jan Kekan San

mi sona ala e toki sina. “sitelen pona li ni lon tenpo” li seme? sitelen kule ale li seme?

sitelen pona li ni lon tenpo; o lukin e sitelen kule ale

janLapate

I think there is a reason why there isn’t a word for “must” or “ought” separate from wanting (wile) and the jussive sense of “o,” going back to the philosophical origins of the language. It’s so that a speaker is compelled to think why they “must” or “ought” to do something. Is it because someone else wants you to do it? Then say that: “wile ona la, mi o moku e pan” – I have to eat the bread because she wants me to. But it might be “mi wile mute moku la, mi wile moku e pan” – because I’m hungry, I should eat (want to eat) some bread. And something like “I must work hard to learn this language” is really saying something like “kama sona pi toki ni li wile e wawa mute tan mi” (or perhaps “tawa,” depending on your nasin). That’s a different kind of “must,” reflecting the needs of difficult task.

TL;DR: “ought” and “must” are complex concepts, that toki pona rightfully compels us to reflect upon and analyze if we want to express them.

jan Tepo

nimi sin ni li pona ala e toki. nasin li lon li wile e nimi sin ala: lon la, sina wile “need” e ijo la, tenpo mute la ni li toki e ni: ijo ante li wile e ijo. sina ken toki e ijo ante ni.

sama ni: mi wile ala pali mani. taso jan lawa li wile e ni: mi pali mani.

o alasa lon pilin sina! o kama sona e ni: lon la, ijo li wile tan seme? ni li wawa e sona sina lon ale.

nimi “should” la sina wile e nimi “o”.

tenpo pini la mi toki Inli e nasin ni lon lipu lili. mi pana e lipu lon ni:

Often, if you need to do something, that just means something else else wants you to do it.

I want to take a walk: mi wile tawa noka.

I need to go to work: pali mani mi li wile e mi.

I need to eat: sijelo mi li wile e moku.

You can also talk about the consequences of not doing the thing.

I need to go to work: mi tawa pali ala la mi kama ala jo e mani.

I need to eat: mi moku ala la mi moli.

janLapate

jan Tepo

mi pilin sama sina! toki pona li wile e ni: mi mute li toki insa e kon pi nimi “ought” anu “must.”

jan Alin

I like it! Also fond of the etymology - I do like the french-derived toki pona words, if only because after tokiponizing their spelling is barely recognizable. 🙂

I think I’d choose different sitelen pona though. These can be read as “wile suli” and “wile lawa”, and while I totally get how you derive “need” and “must” from these, I don’t like the ambiguity between two combined glyphs versus one new glyph. Maybe you can instead work with emitters etc.?

jan Tepo

akesi wawa telo nimi kule li ni: loje en laso en jelo en pimeja en walo. sitelen ona li tan sitelen ante wan, tan leko kin pi palisa tu wan.

ante la - sitelen li sama ‘wile suli’ sama ‘wile lawa’ la, mi ken toki e nimi ‘wile suli’ e nimi ‘wile lawa’, anu seme a? mi wile ala e nimi sin.

akesi wawa telo

jan Tepo

mi pakala. sitelen pona la, mi jo ala e toki insa pona. tenpo kama la mi sona la, mi pona e sitelen pona mi. ‘pison’ en ‘tupe’ la nasin sitelen pona li ken seme? sina ale ken pana e toki insa sina.

jan Tepo

akesi wawa telo nimi tu ni li sama nimi ante la, mi pilin e ni: sitelen pona pi nimi ante li pona. mi wile ala e nimi sin e sitelen sin (a mi toki mute e ni…ni li pona mute ala. mi o pini.)

waso suno

taso ante li seme? nimi wan taso li pona tawa toki tu ni. o lukin e toki:

mi wile e moku!

ilo tawa mi li wile e telo wawa!

mi wile e ilo nanpa sin!

toki ale ni la pison en tupe li seme? mi wile e moku la ijo ante li ken toki e ni: sina pison ala. sina tupe taso. lon la mi ken awen moku ala. ona li tupe taso. taso mi ni lon tenpo suli la mi moli. ike a! pison a! ni la moku li pison anu seme? mi ken awen lili la ni li tupe ala tupe e pison mi?

o lukin e ilo tawa mi: ona li pison e telo. pana ala la mi ken ala kepeken! taso sina ken toki e ni: tupe taso! sina ken ala kepeken la o kepeken ala. o kepeken nasin tawa ante. taso ni li ken ike tawa mi a

ante pi nimi tu ni li ni taso: mi wile e ijo. ijo ni li kama ala tawa mi la ike seme li kama lon? ike li suli la wile li pison. ike lili la wile li tupe. taso suli li seme?

nimi wile li toki pona tawa mi tan ni: tenpo mute la mi wile ala pana e ante ni. o lukin:

mi kule. mi wile ante e sijelo mi tawa ni: ijo ante li sona e meli mi. mi ante ala la ona li awen toki e mije mi.

taso ijo mute li toki ike e ni: sina pison ala. sina tupe taso!

taso ni li ike a tawa mi! pison li seme? tupe li seme? seme li lawa e ni? wile taso li lon la seme li pakala a?

ijo li wile utala e toki mi pi kule mi la ona li ken toki e ni:

sina tupe taso!

o ni ala. wile taso li lon la o toki e ni tawa mi o pana e ike sina tawa ale:

sina ante e sijelo ala la seme li kama lon? ale li toki ike e sina. tenpo ale la sina pilin ike tan toki pi ijo ante. ona li ken wile utala e sina. sina musi ike taso tawa ona. taso ni li suli ala tawa mi. ni la o ante ala e sijelo!

nimi pison en nimi tupe li ken len e ike e pilin ale la nimi wile taso li pona tawa mi. ale o toki e suli ona. seme li suli tawa sina? seme li lili? wile sona ni li toki pona a! mi wile ala sona e suli sina la mi wile toki tawa sina tan seme a a a

akesi wawa telo

mi sona e pakala mi. toki insa ni li ike tan nasin pi toki pona. tenpo pini la mi sona ala e tan nimi wan pi nimi ‘wile’ (I didn’t know the reason why ‘wile’ had such a unified meaning). taso tenpo ni la mi sona.

tenpo ni la mi wile weka e toki insa pakala ni tan lipu. taso mi ken ala. :/

janLapate

o weka ala e toki insa ni! toki pi nimi sin ni li pona a! tenpo ale la, toki pona la, toki pi nasin ale li pona!

waso suno

o weka ala! toki sin li toki pona. toki sina li kama e sona pona mute tan jan mute